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 Post subject: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:36 pm 
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Maybe im gonna cry here, but im not only one who think this is unbalanced. How that thing changes the chances of a fighter classes against caster's.
We have pvp-ed at storm keep, enemy cleric dd build, was with 2 more players and all the summons that are available. We have done the job and get them down, except him and he was running raising and healing them again, when he runned out of spells, he used that, and raise them and heal again :? I think all have lasted like over 10 min ?
Just wanted to ask wheres the Balance here, if we had to use heal kits, and get all sweaty to make the job and he used that new lighting recharge and get he's all lads up and up again. Maybe for fighter classes we should get the heal pot's then ? I know this is actually handy while you cragg people or level up toon, but i think in PVP time to do it should be raised atleast too 2 rounds. It's giving a lot of advance to the caster classes and hard time to a fighters. Your tought's guys :roll:

PS. Also that new Henchman thing, You can get now like private army ! Sorcerer can get 4 summons: Familiar, summon, henchman and henchman's summon :P. Re think that idea please :shock: Not to mention all the summons create more lag :?: :!:

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Nathan Fynolt Of the Sis Ralar - Main character
Ava'llach uin Eringalen
Errdil Vilde'lin uin Eringalen - Cragger
Luke uin Eringalen - quiet Archer
Geralt z Rivii ina Sis Ralar
Surqquss Abonayyartu of the Sis Ralar - Barbarian
Vilgefortz Roggeven of the Sis Ralar - Raised Sorcerer
Arag, hunter of Azag
Rafiel'oo Phanase - Crazy halffling
Zagmi Sink ina Sis Ralar - Tank Cleric


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:01 pm 
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I agree with Rafal. I haven't experienced the lightning recharge that much in PVP yet, but I can imagine it gives casters another good advantage. As it is now casters have huge advantages over any other builds.

This Whole army thing is almost impossible to deal with single handedly, if not, yeah, impossible. Even better if you're a cleric, you can just keep healing your summons, or summon new ones. I realise you can just kill the cast-ee, but circle running will get you far when you've got an army stabbin' your enemy in the back.

Caster + summon + henchmen, and perhaps + summons: summon, is too much for any melee or range char to deal with. The only reason to build a melee as it is, is to bash gates and tank, that's how I see it at least.

I think some kind of nerf is in order, I'm not sure which type though. Maybe make a henchman count as a summon, or restrict henchmen levels. I dunno.

As for the Lightning recharge perhaps it should have it's cooldown increased to perhaps rest-cooldown times two, or something in that direction. For example if you're in an intense raid, it could be used as a last resort thing. I dunno, all ideas

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:10 pm 
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rafalordon wrote:
Maybe im gonna cry here, but im not only one who think this is unbalanced. How that thing changes the chances of a fighter classes against caster's.
We have pvp-ed at storm keep, enemy cleric dd build, was with 2 more players and all the summons that are available. We have done the job and get them down, except him and he was running raising and healing them again, when he runned out of spells, he used that, and raise them and heal again :? I think all have lasted like over 10 min ?
Just wanted to ask wheres the Balance here, if we had to use heal kits, and get all sweaty to make the job and he used that new lighting recharge and get he's all lads up and up again. Maybe for fighter classes we should get the heal pot's then ? I know this is actually handy while you cragg people or level up toon, but i think in PVP time to do it should be raised atleast too 2 rounds. It's giving a lot of advance to the caster classes and hard time to a fighters. Your tought's guys :roll:

PS. Also that new Henchman thing, You can get now like private army ! Sorcerer can get 4 summons: Familiar, summon, henchman and henchman's summon :P. Re think that idea please :shock:



Going to have to agree with Rafalordon, In the end that lightning recharge saved my life and made it where the tables turned for them, what do fighters have? They have -nothing-. The stuff they do have hurts them and makes them use their heal kits, and I have no idea what they do =P. .I got a idea for those people who are non casters, what if they get something that takes 40%-50% HP away and increases their damage for 9 rounds or less? X1 damage, not X2? If that's possible of course. If you can do that, that would make things more balance I -think-. Just something for the fighters that benefits everyone. Idea's? Pro's Con's? post em up so we can even out the PVP zone

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:22 am 
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What if you gave fighters an ability to grant on-hit daze, or even a 1 round on-hit petrify? Drop in balancing cost and a decent cooldown. Basically make it so any class can go "Oh shit, that guy's recharging, time to interrupt it"
EDIT: Why on-hit daze? Can be removed with ent thoughts. Why 1 round petrify? Has no counter, meaning another caster can't drop mind immunity on the recharger to prevent the dazzling strike.

I play a mage, rather then a dwd cleric, so for me lightning recharge is a risk I'll take to prevent me from sitting around, twiddling my thumbs because I have to wait to rest, or worse, that my rest was interrupted by some damn level 40 spell immune monk with disarm. I agree with you though, that lightning recharge provokes very little in the way of threat for a big chunky cleric in a fight. I'd almost be tempted to suggest you get something like 50-100% damage vulnerability while you're recharging.


I'm personally very much against heal pots. I already have res scrolls up the wazoo, if I get heal pots too... what's the point in having a healer class at all?
I'd be in favor of heal spells healing for less though, but that's almost a different issue. It WOULD make dwd clerics slightly less viable, thus hitting the cause of the problem...



You mention the personal army thing... but can't you do the same thing? To me, henchmen seem to basically make a small fight in to a big fight. That's what I don't really like about Henchmen, that and if I kill one, the summoner can just drop a res spell and summon it at full health again, no questions asked. Or they can unsummon it, easy as pie, then heal it up out of sight. I like big fights, but not so much when 50-75% of the contributors are NPCs. It becomes less my skill against yours and more my builds against yours.

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Phoenix - Professor of Spontaneous Thaumaturgical Combustions (and more) of the PhD.
Palm Vana - "I don't whistle when I walk!"


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:27 am 
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im not crazy about the henchmen and amount of summons either....sneakers are no longer fun, the npc autofollow just ruins it, melee is gonna be reduced to high ac or heavy dr


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:50 am 
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Location: Denmark. No Bluee, that is not in Germany.
Quote:
You mention the personal army thing... but can't you do the same thing?


On my casters I can yeah, I dont play casters that often. On my melee characters, no. On my Archer no. On my stealth hitter no.

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"And so, may Evil beware and may Good dress warmly and eat plenty of fresh vegetables."

The Player Behind:
Jay Phansee
Chuck'a'loo Phansee
Burd'a'loo Phansee
Rabum
Kellan
Unan


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:10 am 
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Going to have to agree with the majority who have spoken hear so far. I have used lightning recharge - with my druid - and in fact in stealth. It completely changed everything and the reality is, I was slightly upset with myself after because 1. It made it incredibly easy 2. I realized that if I was in my enemies shoe that would be pretty lame too. So I continue to do it and rub it in their face... just kidding! I try to rarely ever use it... I would like to see it even out with the other abilities.

It would be nice if it was longer wait with it. After all, if its going to act a secondary rest... maybe have it count for 3 rounds or approx 25 seconds?? Maybe the same length as your current rest?? The current 6 seconds essentially is crazy - all you have to do is run to a corner in a keep and hold your breath. Also a damage vulnerability like Fafnir suggested would be good too. I can adapt to player tactics in PvP, but lets make them a little more balanced. What i'm having trouble with is the henchmen.

Henchmen - I've also noticed:
*sneaker classes getting punished even more then usual. They have it hard enough with NPC guards in an enemy keep or realm.

*extremely easy to outnumber opponents in PvP... Player + Henchmen + Summon + Henchmen's Summon = 4 instead of 1. Lucky for us familiar suck so if they are summoned too it's not a big deal.

*The idea that in player verse player, is turning more into player verse monster/npc. Emphasis on the loss of the traditional "cowboy shoot out" between two people.

*Server lag increased... i'll use an example - 5 players attack a raid. 5 are defending. Each player creates a henchmen. There are now 10 players and 10 henchmen. Lets say its in the Horus Realm and the famous chokehold spot in the first area happens. Thats now 2 npc groups in the mix too - which is 8. So 10 + 10 + 8... +5 or so summons as well from either henchmen or casters? That is 33 creatures in 1 small condensed spot, with tons of buffs happening, spells flying, clickings, etc.....

My proposal: Count henchmen as a summon. Choose 1 or the other. Remove summons from henchmen. When a henchmen dies, just like an epic summon, it can only be used once a rest.

I am not saying remove henchmen from the server... they are neat. They just need to be toned down. After all, anyone can get a henchmen, and yet casters are wasting feats on the epic summons which pale in comparison.

While we are talking about summons... i'd really like animal empathy returned. I am biased because I play in the nature realm and naturally threw on AE on about 90% of my characters. :oops: The new hippo summon really doesn't fit in - why? It's better then any summon out there by a mile, it's too powerful of a power-leveling tool for your lowbies - thats the problem - anyone can get it. Make people put in the AE skill to get such an epic pet.

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:26 am 
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The thing with animal empathy is it's a different kind of summon, or "Associate", as it's listed on nwnwiki. Basically, a player can have one each of animal companion, dominated creature (Animal Empathy), Familiar, Henchmen and Summoned Creature. At the moment, the Hippo is a Henchman, so you can't have both the hippo and a henchman at the same time. I'm not really a scripter, so I'm not sure if a check could be made to prevent you from having a hippo and a henchie at the same time.

I'd almost be tempted to say "Let's have 1 of these out at a time", then you have Summons, Animal Empathy, Henchmen and "Special Henchmen". All of them balanced against each other, but you can only ever have one at a time. I think that would help to balance caster classes against other classes, as that 4 character player is suddenly the same number of people as you are. It would also mean we could grant some kind of palpable reward for epic quests, along the lines of the hippo... henchmen that last one reset, but are a slight (stress on slight) cut above the rest.



I'm generally hesitant about losing the henchmen system... because if there's one thing it does for me that I value above everything else, it's muling. I don't have to juggle characters and accounts to find my stuff anymore, I carry everything on henchmen mules, which I can give out to my friends if they're after specific equipment.

I'm also hesitant about losing the Hippo as an easy access summon, or perhaps more accurately losing high level creatures as an easy access summon. The reason for this is I've never really liked training, and kind of took up mages as my primary class because I'm a viable character from level 1 to 40. The hippo has allowed me to expand what I can work with... I can level up something as terrible as my Wizard/Assassin, which completely lacks hp, ac, ab and damage until it gets well in to the epic levels, at which point it's still not really as powerful as my mages, but it fills a niche. The hippo just feels like it evens the playing field, and opens doors for the folks who can't get a friend to help them.



I've talked around in circles, and even managed to forget I was typing at one point! I like to end every post with this, because then I can be all "What, I said THAT!?" when someone brings it up later, and freely change my mind!!!

Congratulations on finding me. Your clue is: Pineapples

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My main Characters

Rico De'vega - Forsaken Scout and Loudmouth.
Phoenix - Professor of Spontaneous Thaumaturgical Combustions (and more) of the PhD.
Palm Vana - "I don't whistle when I walk!"


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:51 am 
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Fafnir_Dragon wrote:
I'm generally hesitant about losing the henchmen system... because if there's one thing it does for me that I value above everything else, it's muling. I don't have to juggle characters and accounts to find my stuff anymore, I carry everything on henchmen mules, which I can give out to my friends if they're after specific equipment.


Did i say lose it, ;), nay i even kinda like it in some way, but it doesn't change the think that its giving advance to the catsers. Lets make it do otherway then. Lets say i make fighter and get henchman cleric or mage. Do i stand a chance against cleric dwd thats summons epic red summon + henchaman fighter ? I have seen figter henchman who was beating blue archer to dead, bah i saw my 26 leve paladin been toring appart by ashard henchaman :P. What my henchman cleric did, standed most of the time watched my hp flew down :P. What i mean here is i loved pvp on SN, it always been on edge, you could feel the build you did. But now its really pvp against summons and henchmans. :evil:


As for the lighting recharge, i heard some said give fighter's something else like extra damage while sucryfice hp. Sure im in for it, lets get like 50% more strenght or extra 20 magic damage for few rounds. :roll:
Or simply make the time that its needed to make it count twice (i mean the praying to the sky thing), 2 rounds or 3.

_________________
Nathan Fynolt Of the Sis Ralar - Main character
Ava'llach uin Eringalen
Errdil Vilde'lin uin Eringalen - Cragger
Luke uin Eringalen - quiet Archer
Geralt z Rivii ina Sis Ralar
Surqquss Abonayyartu of the Sis Ralar - Barbarian
Vilgefortz Roggeven of the Sis Ralar - Raised Sorcerer
Arag, hunter of Azag
Rafiel'oo Phanase - Crazy halffling
Zagmi Sink ina Sis Ralar - Tank Cleric


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:24 am 
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Hah, yeah, it's just my instinct to look for what I'd see as the most obvious bad course of action, and then suggest against it.

As you said, it's a case of AI. I have a buttload of stuff I have to do as a caster, with the more complicated thing being counterspelling, as I have to be aware of what my team is doing as well as my enemy, and not just start countering a random person with spellcaster levels. I'm not sure how complicated AI can get, but I'd be a little concerned if they knew how to do more then "cast spells in this order" and "Counterspell nearest x class".
A melee or archer character needs to know when to engage, against who, and when to disengage, with the finer tactics dependent on what other folks are involved in the fight, and whether you have stealth or not. The standard NWN ai can do most of that, with some degree of clumsiness.


What I think would balance it out a little... make it so when a henchman dies, no henchman can be brought back out until you've rested, regardless of how many res spells you pop. Make it so you can't pull your henchman back to his pokeball if either you or they are in combat.

It still doesn't balance all the way though. Clerics and Druids have two major advantages over other casters. Buff Control, and Healing. Sorcs/wizards have the buff control as well. How can you balance against that? Make it so they're immune to healing spells? That they can only receive the simple buffs (Freedom/Mind Immune/Death Ward/NEP)?
Thinking on it, I kind of like summons more, because their equipment is set. I can do a lot with the crafting system, especially if I'm considering buffs as well. Would it help even out if the henchmen had their own equipment? This is kinda why I suggested having only a single summon type at a time, so that they're even across the board with pre-set equipment, or something like that...

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My main Characters

Rico De'vega - Forsaken Scout and Loudmouth.
Phoenix - Professor of Spontaneous Thaumaturgical Combustions (and more) of the PhD.
Palm Vana - "I don't whistle when I walk!"


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Fafnir_Dragon wrote:
I'd almost be tempted to say "Let's have 1 of these out at a time", then you have Summons, Animal Empathy, Henchmen and "Special Henchmen". All of them balanced against each other, but you can only ever have one at a time.


*Thumbs up*

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:05 pm 
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"looks at the Announcement Mars did" :shock: maybe the henchman thing cannot be fixed and we can simply get rid of it :twisted:

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Nathan Fynolt Of the Sis Ralar - Main character
Ava'llach uin Eringalen
Errdil Vilde'lin uin Eringalen - Cragger
Luke uin Eringalen - quiet Archer
Geralt z Rivii ina Sis Ralar
Surqquss Abonayyartu of the Sis Ralar - Barbarian
Vilgefortz Roggeven of the Sis Ralar - Raised Sorcerer
Arag, hunter of Azag
Rafiel'oo Phanase - Crazy halffling
Zagmi Sink ina Sis Ralar - Tank Cleric


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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:20 pm 
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rafalordon wrote:
"looks at the Announcement Mars did" :shock: maybe the henchman thing cannot be fixed and we can simply get rid of it :twisted:


If they get rid of it they better return all those millions of Gnarlroot and stuff I gave em

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 Post subject: Re: Lighting recharge
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:53 am 
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wow love to play these game
keep it up.....
^_^

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